Having moved to Scotland from London 12yrs ago, working in the asset management sector, I've been pointing this out to colleagues and pub locals for years. I've no real objection to a vote for independence, other than that most of those advocating it seem to think it will mean a socialist utopia, where they have a high tax, big state providing education, health, prescriptions etc. all free. A large portion also seem to want to rejoin the EU (although to be fair it's more the Edinburgh set than the Highland / island type that wants this).
To really wind them up, I point out an independent Scotland would have to be more Thatcher than Corbyn. The problem up here is that the conservatives are from the Ted Heath / John Major wet side of the party and just ape Scottish Labour and the SNP. Given this is the land of John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith, there isn't an MP, let alone a political party, that embodies any enlightenment values. I fear an independent Scotland would ruin itself before it admitted what it needed to do to be successful.
Not that it’s really worth anything, but I agree with the general thrust, but differ on the particulars. Qatar and Singapore rely heavily on foreign workers who are treated more or less like slaves, Norway and Brunei rely heavily on oil and Switzerland relies on its status as one of the world’s leading secrecy jurisdictions. So basically if you don’t have a ton of oil, you need to park morality at the door and go for slave labour or enabling tax evasion, capital flight and organised crime. Yes, modern Italy is fairly corrupt and there is bickering and bureaucracy, but it’s as nothing to the levels of corruption, violence and staggering bureaucracy in Renaissance Italy with its city states and small kingdoms. The place was a constant war zone from 1450 to 1750. Yes, some people got rich, especially if they were related to the right families, but that often ended in murder and stronger people stealing their wealth. And for the broad mass of the population it was utterly miserable, with groups of armed men, often foreign mercenaries, marching about the country brutalising the peasantry and stealing whatever they liked. And as for trade, the reason Parmesan cheese was one of the most precious commodities in England by the time Pepys buried his in the garden to save it from the fire of London, was because to get it from Parma to England meant going through up to a dozen small states, each of which placed a trade duty on it.
And every small state or city state had its own tax system, it’s own bureaucracy, it’s own tariff system, often it’s own monetary system, it’s own system of weights and measures, and its own internal corruption which meant you had to pay through the nose to get anything done. Innovation came through bribing the right people and ensuring the ruling classes got their cut of your hard work. And unlike modern taxes, that cash mostly funded castles, wars and artwork to make them look powerful. A tiny proportion went on helping the lot of the common people, who were for the most part still bonded serfs. The benefits of free healthcare, the ability to choose your life course, travel as you please, live more or less as you please, public art galleries, access to clean water, power, integrated transport systems - hell, ANY transport systems - labour laws to stop the crushing exploitation of the broad mass of the people, access to education for all, a social safety net etc etc etc… all that is due to the expanding of states and internationalisation. Small states most favour dictatorships, oligarchy, aristocracy and rampant corruption, while least favouring ordinary people.
But yes, Scottish GDP might well go up if they become independent, but will it actually improve the lives of most of the population? Or will most of the cash be squirrelled away by the wealthy ‘elite’, as is the case in Qatar, Switzerland, Brunei and Singapore? Hopefully, Scotland could be the new Norway. But the Norwegian way involves very high taxes, which I know you can’t stand, so which direction do you think they should go - renaissance exploitation or Norwegian modern enlightenment?
I’ve lived in Glasgow most of my life (4 years in Edinburgh and 2 years drifting around Europe aside). It’s not the same place I grew up in. I badly wanted to leave, yet lacking in direction in my mid-20s, I returned. It felt very different. It really has changed.
And yet… it hasn’t. Drug abuse is still rife. The whole west coast is staggered, drugs / wealth / drugs / wealth. We are not a healthy or productive nation on the whole (although I do maintain quality of life has improved for many.) This makes me think that land value tax would help us. Don’t tax labour if you’re not a productive people.
The emotive side to the whole discussion will win out. I genuinely do not have a firm opinion on the matter - which is why I’m very grateful for this input. My prediction is a second referendum campaign will be buoyed along by the promise of Universal Basic Income.
Thanks for taking it in the light spirit it was intended. Sometimes so tricky to avoid appearing 'ranty' in online print - especially in the ridiculously binary atmosphere we're currently in. But I think you're absolutely right that if they took it, the Scots could have a great opportunity to become a very rich country. Hang loose, N.
Having moved to Scotland from London 12yrs ago, working in the asset management sector, I've been pointing this out to colleagues and pub locals for years. I've no real objection to a vote for independence, other than that most of those advocating it seem to think it will mean a socialist utopia, where they have a high tax, big state providing education, health, prescriptions etc. all free. A large portion also seem to want to rejoin the EU (although to be fair it's more the Edinburgh set than the Highland / island type that wants this).
To really wind them up, I point out an independent Scotland would have to be more Thatcher than Corbyn. The problem up here is that the conservatives are from the Ted Heath / John Major wet side of the party and just ape Scottish Labour and the SNP. Given this is the land of John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith, there isn't an MP, let alone a political party, that embodies any enlightenment values. I fear an independent Scotland would ruin itself before it admitted what it needed to do to be successful.
Not that it’s really worth anything, but I agree with the general thrust, but differ on the particulars. Qatar and Singapore rely heavily on foreign workers who are treated more or less like slaves, Norway and Brunei rely heavily on oil and Switzerland relies on its status as one of the world’s leading secrecy jurisdictions. So basically if you don’t have a ton of oil, you need to park morality at the door and go for slave labour or enabling tax evasion, capital flight and organised crime. Yes, modern Italy is fairly corrupt and there is bickering and bureaucracy, but it’s as nothing to the levels of corruption, violence and staggering bureaucracy in Renaissance Italy with its city states and small kingdoms. The place was a constant war zone from 1450 to 1750. Yes, some people got rich, especially if they were related to the right families, but that often ended in murder and stronger people stealing their wealth. And for the broad mass of the population it was utterly miserable, with groups of armed men, often foreign mercenaries, marching about the country brutalising the peasantry and stealing whatever they liked. And as for trade, the reason Parmesan cheese was one of the most precious commodities in England by the time Pepys buried his in the garden to save it from the fire of London, was because to get it from Parma to England meant going through up to a dozen small states, each of which placed a trade duty on it.
And every small state or city state had its own tax system, it’s own bureaucracy, it’s own tariff system, often it’s own monetary system, it’s own system of weights and measures, and its own internal corruption which meant you had to pay through the nose to get anything done. Innovation came through bribing the right people and ensuring the ruling classes got their cut of your hard work. And unlike modern taxes, that cash mostly funded castles, wars and artwork to make them look powerful. A tiny proportion went on helping the lot of the common people, who were for the most part still bonded serfs. The benefits of free healthcare, the ability to choose your life course, travel as you please, live more or less as you please, public art galleries, access to clean water, power, integrated transport systems - hell, ANY transport systems - labour laws to stop the crushing exploitation of the broad mass of the people, access to education for all, a social safety net etc etc etc… all that is due to the expanding of states and internationalisation. Small states most favour dictatorships, oligarchy, aristocracy and rampant corruption, while least favouring ordinary people.
But yes, Scottish GDP might well go up if they become independent, but will it actually improve the lives of most of the population? Or will most of the cash be squirrelled away by the wealthy ‘elite’, as is the case in Qatar, Switzerland, Brunei and Singapore? Hopefully, Scotland could be the new Norway. But the Norwegian way involves very high taxes, which I know you can’t stand, so which direction do you think they should go - renaissance exploitation or Norwegian modern enlightenment?
If only they weren’t run by communists
I’ve lived in Glasgow most of my life (4 years in Edinburgh and 2 years drifting around Europe aside). It’s not the same place I grew up in. I badly wanted to leave, yet lacking in direction in my mid-20s, I returned. It felt very different. It really has changed.
And yet… it hasn’t. Drug abuse is still rife. The whole west coast is staggered, drugs / wealth / drugs / wealth. We are not a healthy or productive nation on the whole (although I do maintain quality of life has improved for many.) This makes me think that land value tax would help us. Don’t tax labour if you’re not a productive people.
The emotive side to the whole discussion will win out. I genuinely do not have a firm opinion on the matter - which is why I’m very grateful for this input. My prediction is a second referendum campaign will be buoyed along by the promise of Universal Basic Income.
Thanks for taking it in the light spirit it was intended. Sometimes so tricky to avoid appearing 'ranty' in online print - especially in the ridiculously binary atmosphere we're currently in. But I think you're absolutely right that if they took it, the Scots could have a great opportunity to become a very rich country. Hang loose, N.