I think the reason we have lost this ability has to be more than just technological advances. Like so many other aspects of society, the expectations we place on ourselves are just so much lower than they were in the past.
It all happens in middle and high school. It wasn’t cool to appear intellectual and was more fun to speak in generalized colloquialisms that only your generation understood so the teachers/parents didn’t realize you were talking shit. It was also easier to be lazy than to be patient with your thoughts and then articulate them precisely. I don’t know if it’s more complicated than that. We weren’t taught or encouraged to be conscious, so it was on you to find out the value in it. At least that was my experience.
So very true! You have hit the nail squarely, forcefully and emphatically on the head. Why do so many people speak that way? Maybe it’s lack of confidence, or lack of consideration, or maybe it’s just not ‘cool’. Who knows? My old friend Ted’s riposte was to take the piss: “Mumble that again, Terry!”
Possibly because people don’t actually talk / argue / debate with each other that much, or in large enough groups. I am lucky - a family of 7 very argumentative and quite intelligent people who sat down together and ate and shouted at each other, sometimes a lot. We also laughed. But you had to hear and understand, even if the others disagreed. So, carry (not just volume, but clarity and intelligibility), and courage - this is what I think and believe and I’m going to defend it - and articulacy - I can at least try to explain what I mean - counted. It was good training 😂
Current PC philosophy is that there can be no "self-improvement" in speech because all ways of speaking are equal.
I remember being in my South London primary school from the age of 7 and learning to dumb down my speech that my mother had taught me and become more cockney in order to fit in with the other kids.
It does make a difference. I recall listening to Sir Norman St John Stevas years ago. As he was some kind of spokesman for the Royals I was not really interested in what he had to say, but the delivery was always so pleasing to listen to.
So considered and measured, not a hint of sniffiness, and his tone always so soothing.
It sounds like you have discovered a gap is in the crowded self-improvement market! Where would you find elocution lessons these days? I haven't a clue.
The clipped BBC accent should make a triumphant return and dumbing down should cease. Enough with the roadman speak, you feel me.
Here’s a question Dom, (do you go by Dom?) What can we do to improve our speech?
I have recently discovered that writing on Substack has massively improved my ability to think. For the last 25 years I have written nothing apart from emails and tenders, I had forgotten just how important writing is. As Jordan Peterson says, writing and thinking are the same thing. I can only hope that by writing, and therefore thinking, improved speech will follow.
Absolutely, Dom. My general point is that English is THE international language, and people wanting to listen to some form of clear English would do far better to listen to Scandinavia s, or Germans rather than contemporary BBC. The English they speak should be the school norm, and leave dialect to home and pub. Accent is very variable - Geordie,Scouse, Scots, etc.
Good to find someone who feels this way about speech. It is such an unpopular POV esp. in social media, the domain of the stupid but nevertheless opinionated, to spring to the defense of the dumbing down and eradication of the beauty of our language, as you say, with snob/elitist accusations. In our society, being coarse is 'authentic' and being courteous is undervalued.
My specific irritation for years was 'vocal fry' which seems to be dying out except with the most tenacious of celebutards. Recently it's the dropping of "t" in the middle of a word and 's' that gets turned into 'sh'. So - Mountain becomes 'mow-ehn', Putin is 'Poo-in', Mainstream is 'main-shrtreem'. Is it affectation?
I agree, there is no substitute for a well spoken person who pronounces words with clarity. They command respect.
I guess you can thank much of the dross on TV these days which influences how people speak. It was even a trend back in the day, when London was swinging in the sixties, to drop the posh boy accent in favour of a bit of Estuary English (or ess-cherry, as it was pronounced). Eastenders has a lot to answer for, in addition to being a load of televisual rubbish. Yours, aye…
Absolutely right. The very worst are American women who are unintelligible - nasal, grating, grunting. Followed by their men who like to sound tough. The English language has been mauled by Australians, South Africans, extreme home dialects - eg Glaswegian.
The problem is school where the teachers set the tone. If I had my way alls schools would have to teach what has, curiously , been termed RP. Basic English should be entirely free of dialect - in Germany Hoch Deutsch is called Bühne Deutsch - stage German. But as you say, our actors are among the worst offenders. That was one advantage of a Grammar School education.
I lived just outside of Cambridge for 3 years - had no problem with the 'gownies' but the townies. I remember buying delicious cream buns at the baker and my confusion at the counter, needing the girl to repeat herself twice. She was saying 'thirty pence'. Came out as 'er-eee pent'. Glottal stops and dropped consonant fiesta. I don't mind the home accents, though. They're charming and have the legitimacy of years of use. It's the affectations of American women - exactly. Nasal, grating. Vocal fry. I am inclined to dislike the speakers and have to pull myself together to focus on what they are saying.
Local dialect is charming and.must be preserved. I am a Devonian (where's it to?). But your point exactly describes the problem. Her response was sloppy speech. I had to give up here in Jersey because the shop assistant gabbled
unintelligiblly. And as for Lloyd's Bank help desk in Glasgow........
Interesting piece, Dominic.
I think the reason we have lost this ability has to be more than just technological advances. Like so many other aspects of society, the expectations we place on ourselves are just so much lower than they were in the past.
Thanks Miles. Yes - it takes work
This podcast am well good innit.
Bruvvv!
It all happens in middle and high school. It wasn’t cool to appear intellectual and was more fun to speak in generalized colloquialisms that only your generation understood so the teachers/parents didn’t realize you were talking shit. It was also easier to be lazy than to be patient with your thoughts and then articulate them precisely. I don’t know if it’s more complicated than that. We weren’t taught or encouraged to be conscious, so it was on you to find out the value in it. At least that was my experience.
Plenty of truth to that
"We weren't taught or encouraged to be conscious" is a valuable observation.
So very true! You have hit the nail squarely, forcefully and emphatically on the head. Why do so many people speak that way? Maybe it’s lack of confidence, or lack of consideration, or maybe it’s just not ‘cool’. Who knows? My old friend Ted’s riposte was to take the piss: “Mumble that again, Terry!”
I think lack of confidence is a huge factor yes. Also the need to fit in ...
Possibly because people don’t actually talk / argue / debate with each other that much, or in large enough groups. I am lucky - a family of 7 very argumentative and quite intelligent people who sat down together and ate and shouted at each other, sometimes a lot. We also laughed. But you had to hear and understand, even if the others disagreed. So, carry (not just volume, but clarity and intelligibility), and courage - this is what I think and believe and I’m going to defend it - and articulacy - I can at least try to explain what I mean - counted. It was good training 😂
I'll bet that was a factor. Will have made you quick witted too.
Indeed. You’d be dead if you weren’t ☺️
Current PC philosophy is that there can be no "self-improvement" in speech because all ways of speaking are equal.
I remember being in my South London primary school from the age of 7 and learning to dumb down my speech that my mother had taught me and become more cockney in order to fit in with the other kids.
That's how it happens sadly
It does make a difference. I recall listening to Sir Norman St John Stevas years ago. As he was some kind of spokesman for the Royals I was not really interested in what he had to say, but the delivery was always so pleasing to listen to.
So considered and measured, not a hint of sniffiness, and his tone always so soothing.
Haha. Yes, indeed
Vocal Fry…… Bloody vocal Fry. I absolutely detest it. It’s everywhere.
Yes indeed
Are you in Britain? Except for the most tenacious, it seems to be dying out here in Canada thank christ.
It sounds like you have discovered a gap is in the crowded self-improvement market! Where would you find elocution lessons these days? I haven't a clue.
The clipped BBC accent should make a triumphant return and dumbing down should cease. Enough with the roadman speak, you feel me.
YouTube innit blud
Here’s a question Dom, (do you go by Dom?) What can we do to improve our speech?
I have recently discovered that writing on Substack has massively improved my ability to think. For the last 25 years I have written nothing apart from emails and tenders, I had forgotten just how important writing is. As Jordan Peterson says, writing and thinking are the same thing. I can only hope that by writing, and therefore thinking, improved speech will follow.
Learn a poem by heart and recite it aloud?
a very good exercise indeed
There are bound to be some basic tutorials on YouTube but I would say tongue twisters are a great place to start ...
Absolutely, Dom. My general point is that English is THE international language, and people wanting to listen to some form of clear English would do far better to listen to Scandinavia s, or Germans rather than contemporary BBC. The English they speak should be the school norm, and leave dialect to home and pub. Accent is very variable - Geordie,Scouse, Scots, etc.
Oh yes
Good to find someone who feels this way about speech. It is such an unpopular POV esp. in social media, the domain of the stupid but nevertheless opinionated, to spring to the defense of the dumbing down and eradication of the beauty of our language, as you say, with snob/elitist accusations. In our society, being coarse is 'authentic' and being courteous is undervalued.
My specific irritation for years was 'vocal fry' which seems to be dying out except with the most tenacious of celebutards. Recently it's the dropping of "t" in the middle of a word and 's' that gets turned into 'sh'. So - Mountain becomes 'mow-ehn', Putin is 'Poo-in', Mainstream is 'main-shrtreem'. Is it affectation?
I agree, there is no substitute for a well spoken person who pronounces words with clarity. They command respect.
Thanks Polly - too true
Bone props.
Thank you!
I guess you can thank much of the dross on TV these days which influences how people speak. It was even a trend back in the day, when London was swinging in the sixties, to drop the posh boy accent in favour of a bit of Estuary English (or ess-cherry, as it was pronounced). Eastenders has a lot to answer for, in addition to being a load of televisual rubbish. Yours, aye…
Indeed. And Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels ...
Absolutely right. The very worst are American women who are unintelligible - nasal, grating, grunting. Followed by their men who like to sound tough. The English language has been mauled by Australians, South Africans, extreme home dialects - eg Glaswegian.
The problem is school where the teachers set the tone. If I had my way alls schools would have to teach what has, curiously , been termed RP. Basic English should be entirely free of dialect - in Germany Hoch Deutsch is called Bühne Deutsch - stage German. But as you say, our actors are among the worst offenders. That was one advantage of a Grammar School education.
Hahaha - thanks Bill! You need to come up to London and hear how bad the mauling is here ...
One day Dom - Chelsea Arts Club. X
Look forward
I lived just outside of Cambridge for 3 years - had no problem with the 'gownies' but the townies. I remember buying delicious cream buns at the baker and my confusion at the counter, needing the girl to repeat herself twice. She was saying 'thirty pence'. Came out as 'er-eee pent'. Glottal stops and dropped consonant fiesta. I don't mind the home accents, though. They're charming and have the legitimacy of years of use. It's the affectations of American women - exactly. Nasal, grating. Vocal fry. I am inclined to dislike the speakers and have to pull myself together to focus on what they are saying.
Local dialect is charming and.must be preserved. I am a Devonian (where's it to?). But your point exactly describes the problem. Her response was sloppy speech. I had to give up here in Jersey because the shop assistant gabbled
unintelligiblly. And as for Lloyd's Bank help desk in Glasgow........
You can still have good speech and a local accent (as I'm sure you know)